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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner |
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| Bass Acoustic/Steel Guitar | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 01:22 pm |
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1st Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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Those with whom I've shared luthery projects may be shaking their heads at this point, but here I go again. Situation: I found an old solid body no-name electric bass put out on the street for adoption. It had a hard case which was already falling apart. No strings, a knob missing. I powered it up and noticed that it neither exploded, smoked or did anything dire. I did get some sound from the pickups indicating some hope for the electronics. But I don't want a solid body bass. I had one once and gave it away. I would like an acoustic bass-guitar. They aren't even that expensive. But buying one is not the point. Having it come together is. So I took the neck off. Two minutes with a screw-driver and it was done. I have an old beach guitar I never play. Rotten action and not good enough tone to bother fixing. So it's future became suddenly guarded. Why not mount the bass neck on the guitar body? Well I assumed I would have to reposition and possibly replace the bridge, reinforce the block and still end up with not great instrument. But what the heck, it's winter. I was amazed: the bass was made by Ibanez. The name was inside where only a luthier would ever know. (I took that for encouragement.) They I measured the distance from the bass nut to the 12th fret, to see how much I would have to move the bridge. Then I measured again. I didn't have to move the bridge at all! (More encouragement!) Eventually, I'll have to adjust the saddle or something to get the string spacing right. But that's in the future. Next: remove the neck from the beach guitar. I've straigthened necks, turned 6-strings into 12-strings, I've fixed frets... never removed a neck. This one is glued throughout. I was hoping that this cheapish guitar would have some internal bolts. Nope. I assume a heated flat blade is the under the fret board is the place to begin, but will hold off to see if any of you have any suggested. I could saw it off, as one of my books recommends. Once only a stub remains, getting it out of the dovetail is relatively fast work. But I don't want to destroy the neck. Enter Double Project, Part Two: The Steel Guitar. I hope to mount the neck, with a raised nut and reversed tuners, on the body of the bass! (No, I am not crazy. I think I can do it.) It will be a very odd looking instrument. So what. There are places for the pickups already there. I will probably have to replace some wiring and probably the pickups. (There are three.) If the pick-up still work in the bass range and but not the guitar range, they might end up on the acoustic bass. Sort of a family reunion, in parts. If I'm dreadfully lucky, they might end up in place and sound okay on the steel guitar. These instruments will never be my principles. Just fun stuff to take out when the jam is at my house. At this point, I throw the project open for discussion, advice, encouragement and/or souces for tranquilizers.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 01:23 am |
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2nd Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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(Shaking head slowly from side to side): Phil, Phil, Phil. . .  Keep us posted, sounds interesting.
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 12:26 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I crossed my Rubicon yesterday. I have the fret board loosend on the acoustic guitar. So there's more reason to go forward than stop now. Had to loosen the fret board in the more-difficult-than-I-imagined neck removal. I wish I had whatever glue they used. Shock, heat, moisture... nada. Will keep at it.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 03:02 pm |
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4th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress! I got the neck off the acoustic guitar. It was the strangest construction I have ever seen and explains why I never could adjuct the action to my liking... hence why it was disposable. The neck was neither bolted (that would have made it too easy) nor dovetailed (that would have been a sign of a better guitar). The heel of the neck was glued flush with the body of the guitar and reinforced with five small dowels. One of them didn't survive. The neck did have a tension rod and it was adjustable, but turning never seems to do anything. Doesn't matter now. Never heard of this dowel short cut before. I used boiling water to heat a thin, flexible putty knife. First gentle taps, then much more aggressive wallops with a small ball-peen hammer was the form of applied kinetics I used. Yesterday, it didn't work. Perhaps the water was hot enough? Or I did begin to loosen the glue, and today finished the job, whatever. The neck came off in 15 minutes. I'll do the acoustic bass first. Next step will be to figure out how to reinforce the block. The one in place is way too small. Since the neck was originally bolted in place, I intent to use bolts as well, but they will be longer to accomodate the thicker body. I may have to tap new threads. That's not a problem. I winder if construction pine would be good enough, I have a four by four hanging around that could go into the instrument. Anyone know? I'll also have to cut into the face of the instrument to make space to recieve the thick bass fret board overhang. That's about when the new block with pre-drilled hols with go in. Yes, I'll have to drill complimentary holes in the back of the instrument body. In for a penny... Of course, the bass neck itself will be the template for spacing the holes. Plan on using a dremel with a rotary disk drill when I work of the face. This is the way I cut away the damage on the recently completed ES-175 repair.(And which gives me the courage to do my Dr. Frankenstein act again). Last edited on Tue Dec 9th, 2008 03:05 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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5th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Status: Acoustic Bass Guitar: Not much progress. I've cut a template for the guitar face surgery. I turned the neck upside down on top of a piece of card-stock paper and traced the heel end of the fret board. This will guide me when I cut into the face to install a bigger block and to accept the thicker fret board and heel of the neck, most of which will be embedded in the guitar. Lap Steel project: Similarly, I've cut a spacer to fill in the gap between the hell of the neck and the radical curve of the guitar body. Chose doing that rather then cutting the body, in case I ever want to use it for something else. Also have a spacer block measured to raise to fill in the extra space the bass requires with the thinner acoustic fret board. Not bothering with pictures until I'm further along. There will be some tension-bearing glue joints. Not sure if Titebound or hide glue will be strong enough to handle the bass neck. Rather not go to epoxy. Any suggestions?
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 12:56 am |
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6th Post |
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Will Approved 
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Phil: That's a very interesting shop project that you're working on. I'm not a bass player (yet), but I've read articles on the acoustic bass guitar, which was developed only very recently, during the early 70's. It seems that the air volume necessary to generate loud enough low notes to be heard over guitars requires a much larger body dimensions than most acoustic guitars (note that most acoustic bass guitars have a Gibson-style jumbo body). For that reason, nearly all acoustic bass guitars have built-in pickups. The Mexican bass guitar, the guitarron, has a huge body that's almost half a foot thick with cable-like strings, and a very short unfretted neck. Good luck with your project.
____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 01:43 am |
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7th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Thanks Will. The body of this guitar (soon to be a bass guitar) is dreadnought sized. Well, pretty close. If it works out, it will not travel far nor be played under demanding conditions. I'm realistic about that. If necessary, I'll pick a pick up in it should I have to. I assume along the way, I'll have to learn bass. I can get by, but I'm not really a bass musician. I've heard thaat the Mexican istrument isn't really fretted. The strings are tuned for the song (or the key) and are played open. I leave plenty of room for correction there. So if anyone knows, speak up.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13th, 2008 05:05 am |
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8th Post |
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HowlinHobbit Approved 
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Philj200 wrote: I've heard thaat the Mexican istrument isn't really fretted. The strings are tuned for the song (or the key) and are played open. I leave plenty of room for correction there. So if anyone knows, speak up. One of my partners in crime -- and rhyme -- in Snake Suspenderz (Thaddeus to be precise) plays a guitarron anytime we're a duo or trio-sans-bass-instrument. Our bass instrument is currently tuba. It rocks. We are shooting for having a new CD of this quartet by the first of 2009. Stay tuned. But about the guitarron... no, it's not really "fretted" in that it's a fretless instrument, but it is fingered like you would any fretless instrument. I really dunno how the mariachi cats do it, but tuning six (yes, six) strings every time you change keys sounds like too much bother to me. Thad sits his upright in his lap and plays it as if it was a portable upright bass (w/two extra strings). The thing is LOUD, jack. It's designed as a street instrument and works beautifully in that role. Some of the best of Snake Suspenderz (classic duo edition) is me on uke and Thad on guitarron. As far as your two projects go, I predict you might be fairly disappointed with the bass, but the lap steel sounds like it has the potential to rock your socks off. Either way, I'll bet it'll be fun to do the projects. Can't beat that.
____________________ Howlin' Hobbit Got Uke? MySpace ezFolk UkeLand |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13th, 2008 02:10 pm |
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9th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I check the tuning on my banjos all the time. Unless the Mexican instrument has friction pegs, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for an experienced player. I hold no great expectations (is that a song cue?) for the bass guitar. We'll see (or hear) in a while. The lap steel is presenting a difficulty. I have a spacer block cut and fitted, but not glued into position yet. It is supposed to receive the neck and nest it into the body. But getting the 12th fret to be in the right position means I still either have to carve into the body a little or make drastic changes to the heel of the neck. That is, if I leave the bridge in the place. I'm leaning to cutting the heel and building some sort of armature to reinforce the neck. As for the bridge... that will take some experimentation. The bridge that's in place will have to go since it's an adjustable bridge for a bass. It may (or not) move over to the other project. I have a spare bridge from an old arch top... or I'll break down and buy something. The goal is to complete the projects buying only strings. Everything else is found, salvaged or adapted.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14th, 2008 11:18 pm |
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10th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Life's too short... I'm changing the design for the lap steel half of the project(s). Instead of using the body from the bass, I'll make a new body out of an oak plank I have sitting around. The reason is simple, it'll be easier. I won't have to drastically cut into the heel just under the fretboard and thinking of doing something about the truss-rod AND mess around with the existing curves of the bass body. I can rout-out chambers for the pick-up (or two) and place the bridge (which I'll have to think some more about) where ever it will work best. This new design can take any shape I want. What do you think about an hourglass shape... ala lap dulcimer. Anyone have some pick-ups that they don't need? Which reminds me, a friend of mine has a thin-body acoustic-electric with two different types of pick-ups. One is a Fender type and give a strident electric-rock sound. The other is an old humbucker that yields a liquid classic jazz guitar sound. He can pick either or both. Interesting idea.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14th, 2008 11:19 pm |
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11th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Duplicate post deleted Last edited on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 11:02 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28th, 2008 11:09 pm |
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12th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress Report: I cut open the face of the acoustic guitar body using a rotary saw on a dremel. Then used a knife, rasp and sure-form tool to shape the hole (a vague romboid) to receive the bass neck. It fits good enough now. Next will come building the block to hold the neck in place. I will probably make the block out of three plies of pine with the grain on the middle piece at 90-degrees. I have to sink a groove in the bottom-most ply to fit over a back-brace. Probably use a router for that. Or a back-saw. It looks cool when I hold the neck inplace. I wonder what it will sound like. I guess like a cheap guitar, only lower. Lining up the holes to bolt the neck to the block is a challenge. I've made a template on card-stock. The original bolts won't be long enough. I assume I can find or fit longer bolts. Considering carving a heel for the neck to give a larger glue joint and perhaps not net the bolts. Not sure. The clock is stopped on the lap-steel project for the moment. Too many pots boiling. Last edited on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 11:15 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15th, 2009 07:39 pm |
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13th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress Report: I've built the block as previously described. Turned out to be four ply of pine glued with hide glue at 90-degree angles. Quarter-inch holes to receive the bolts have been bored with a drill press. Here's an interesting problem; my drill press is a very light duty model. And I could not adjust the throat deep enough to handle the drill bit, the travel and the work piece. So I used the drill press to bore about half way, removedd the drill-press plate, used the half-way hol as a guide and drilled the rest of the way by hand. When I could get my heart out of my moth, I examined the back of the guitar body. No splintering (imagine me punching the air). The holes seem straight. I had to trim the upper end of the fret board since it was blocking about half of the sound hole. One pass with an 1/8" band saw did it. I chose to use bolts rather than glue becasue I anticapate a fair aamount of angle setting. With a glued joint, I wouldn't have the ability to adjust (without going crazy). This way, I can adjust as needed and either leave the instrument at that point, or when I'm sure the angle is correct. Glue it in place, with the bolts for added strength. I could have been a little neater with the blocks. If the shebang holds together I'll clean it up. As a taper to the high end of the fret board would be nice too. These are details to take care of later on. Lap steel project resumes after this is complete. Last edited on Sat Jan 17th, 2009 05:22 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17th, 2009 05:27 pm |
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14th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Got the neck mounted! But am not happy with the fit. It is snug but not snug enough. The angle seems okay and is adjustable. But I don't think the neck can take the tension of strings. I'll install an L-brace temporarily: this will help me be sure the neck angle is right and the neck and can take the tension. Then I'll replace the L-brace with a wooden heel. Of course, I haven't addressed the bridge yet (Hello Bridge!). Will either adapt the existing six-string bridge, take the bridge off the old body, or carve a new one. Might use the piece of rosewood left over from the ES-175 repair a few months ago. What do you think so far? Attachment: baritone guitar1.jpg (Downloaded 19 times) Last edited on Sat Jan 17th, 2009 05:41 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 12:11 am |
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15th Post |
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Charlie Approved 
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Phil you have gone to far to quite now and it is looking like you are going all the way, I have many projects on my work bench that I give up on long ago that I will never finish. I have an old guitar that I bought from goodwill that I cut down the neck to make a tenor and hope to finish some day. Keep us in on whats happen. Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 10:48 pm |
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16th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Funny that you mention the your tenor guitar project. There was a time when I was going to make a 5-string banitar out of the acoustic body. I have a spare 5-string neck (and two tenor necks too). But I doubted the work envolved would have be justified by the resulting instrument. I would have fashioned a long truss rod that went all the way from the heel of the neck to the base-plate of the guitar body. Last count revealed seven banjos: I mostly play just three of them, so a banitar would be the step-sister even Cinderella shunned. Next I'ill be putting some strings on the bass guitar (or is a baritone) critter and seeing how it holds together, action, bridge placement accuracy. I'll finish this project and soon too. Neck stabilty next, then bridge. Then cosmetic cleaning and spotting finishing. Then I'll play it for a week and let it join the herd. Decided that the lap steel side of the double project will proceed with a new body mady of oak top (I had a piece of oak hanging around) and whatever is hanging around the basement. It will have an hour-glass shape similar to a dulcimer. ONly has to be atwo or three inches thick and not much longer than the neck, plus the lenght of the fret board (12/12 rule) and the tuning board. This won't be a killer project.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22nd, 2009 12:56 pm |
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17th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Took a little time off to actually play some of the other girls. I will use the remainder of the mahagony Dusty gave me for the previous adventure in saw dust, to make a new bridge. I'll copy the height and hole placement from a friend's acoustic bass and should be finished in a few days. (Or not.) The neck seems to be sturdy. I'll know more when I put strings on it and it's under tension. I'm thinking of carving a a heel piece. This will be pretty much cosmetic since the main strenght comes from an L-bracket and some long screws that go thriough the back of the instrument trhount the neck block into the understide of the neck. Not the prettiest solution. I had to cut the L-bracket to fit. And bore additional holes since the one that came predrilled were either removed or in the wrong place. ANyone have any advice on bridge building. (It's already taken a toll).
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 11:31 pm |
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18th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Okay, I got bored with the project, but several weeks of miserable weather plus nervous energy waiting for another grandchild.... Anyway, I finished the bass guitar. Strung it up, tuned it up. Played it. It works. Acceptable tone. Not much volume. It will need some sort of amplification to play with others. Will see if there's any life left in the pickups on what's left of the original body. Neck is not perfect. I may reset it. I made it so that is comes apart. The ugly bridge from the electric works fine. Small blessings.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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