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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2   |
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| Remove & rebuild the neck to lower action | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 02:13 am |
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1st Post |
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BigPapaK Approved
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Took my guitar to repair shop today. 72-73 Gibson J-50 Deluxe. Neck is straight, action is as low as it can go. To lower it, I am told, the neck needs to be rebuilt to lower the action at a price of ~600.00. It seems to make sense, but how does this extensive work impact the resale of such a vintage instrument; I would like a better action, but is it really worth it. Am I ruining a family heirloom by doing this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 04:34 am |
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2nd Post |
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Will Approved 
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This is just my opinion, but if it were my guitar, I'd leave the vintage J-50 as is. You could get a new Epiphone Masterbilt solid wood guitar with built-in pickup for the $600 you'd be spending: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Epiphone-Masterbilt-AJ500R-Advanced-Jumbo-Acoustic-Guitar?sku=519052 
____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 05:29 am |
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3rd Post |
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BigPapaK Approved
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You know I was thinking along those lines, leave well enough alone, but not as practical as you. I got that itch for a Martin and peruse the 000-28 and HD-28 from time to time. You know, there's something about a Martin... I'm inclined to the 000 because of the smaller body size. The J-50 is a nice big body for those deep tones- an especially good rhythm guitar IMHO. But, as far as the Gibson is concerned, leave well enough alone sounds like reasonable advice.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11th, 2009 02:41 am |
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4th Post |
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Bikewer Approved
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Check out the articles on "Neck Re-setting" on Frets.com to see what's involved in this procedure: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html It's a fairly involved bit of work... If the guitar is worth it, and the repairperson competent, it can be like getting a "new" instrument, and a well-aged one at that.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11th, 2009 06:33 am |
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5th Post |
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theBlackman Approved 
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You don't want to do that: As a vintage guitar it has a high value. If you do screw around with it you may get a lower action, but you will have a less valuable instrument for further trade or use. Use the money to get another guitar. There are many at the 600 dollar price that you may like. Play a few dozen, and when you find a sound and feel that you like get that regardless of whether it is a Gibson, Martin, Ovation or whatever. Attachment: J-50 value.GIF (Downloaded 38 times)
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11th, 2009 06:00 pm |
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6th Post |
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Jim Yates Approved 
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I consider my guitars as tools. If they need work done on them to make them more playable, I'll have it done. My 1962 D-21 hasn't had a neck set, but if it needed one it'd get it. I have a 1958 Goya M-26 that had the neck re-set and it plays so much better that I'm glad I did it. The same is true with my wife's 1921 O-18. If it's not playable, fix it. It's been a few years since I've had a neck set, but $600 seems kinda steep to me. Last edited on Wed Nov 11th, 2009 06:01 pm by Jim Yates ____________________ Jim http://www.myspace.com/jimyates http://www.myspace.com/mapleleafchampionjugband |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11th, 2009 09:01 pm |
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7th Post |
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AB Approved 
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I can't understand how a musician can own an unplayable guitar, my guitars are part of my life and I hate to look at them out of shape. Ok, it's vintage but it's also a guitar, she (opsss!!!) must sing!  Maybe there is a less intrusive work to do, you could try to ask to another liuthier. The Frets article is interesting: "After the neck reset has been performed, the same forces of string tension will continue to change the body, and the neck will need to be reset again. I really don't know what the eventual outcome will be. Will there come a time when the instrument stabilizes completely, or collapses completely?" It seems this work is needed (and not once in the guitar life) or the action will increase, I don't know if this has a positive influence for the guitar value. My 2cents. Good luck! AB
____________________ My Music |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12th, 2009 01:05 am |
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8th Post |
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theBlackman Approved
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Jim Yates wrote: I consider my guitars as tools. If they need work done on them to make them more playable, I'll have it done. My 1962 D-21 hasn't had a neck set, but if it needed one it'd get it. I have a 1958 Goya M-26 that had the neck re-set and it plays so much better that I'm glad I did it. The same is true with my wife's 1921 O-18. If it's not playable, fix it. I too consider them to be tools, but also old friends. I don't have a lot of work done on my vintage instruments that would drastically change them. The reason for that is that when I leave this mortal plane, and I will, I hope the vintage instruments will find a good home with someone who appreciates them and thier history. To me the value is in the sound and playability, but major reconstruction of an undamaged older instrument is like modernizing the Mona Lisa. Dollar value not-withstanding, it's like putting candy-apple-red metallic flake on a Morgan Plus4. It may look good but it ain't real.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12th, 2009 12:59 pm |
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9th Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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Let's stop for a moment: Are we trying to achieve perfect action on a decent instrument. Or saving an unplayable instrument? I read this thread from the beginning. The original poster said the neck was straight and action as low as possible. We are all assuming that the action was too high without specifically being told that. But assuming so, those of us who have done serious luthery will know that the causes of high action on an acoustic guitar can be many. This is an older instrument. A steel string instrument under tension for decade may bell out at the bridge. Even a slight rise in the face of the guitar will cause a dramatic rise in the action. However, this is a lot easier and there should be much cheaper to fix. The bridge can be shaved thinner or replaced lowing the action. Again, cheaper, faster and safer than resetting the neck. As can the fretboard. Safety for the instrument is a concern: Old glue my be holding fine (as it should) but with the added stress of this kind of work, joints may open, braces pop, side/top cleats give way. It can all be attended too. But as a risk of never getting back to factory specs again. Is your repair person really qualified to do this? Do they guarantee their work? What does the guarantee give you? Will such extensive repais hurt the value of the instrument, certainly if botched. Possibly if not. It might even improve the value if done well. But this is a family treasure and resale isn't on the table. Unless your repairman offered a trade in. You give the instrument to him as is, he gives you a new and cheaper instrument. If so, I'd back out of the shop pretty damn fast. If the neck really has to be removed, Gibson can do it. They are not cheap. But they are geared to this level of work. Contact them. You can even send them jpg's. Certainly get a second opinion from them or another repair source being doing anything. My opinion: If this instrument is playable let it alone. Spend the money on a new guitar, one thay you don't have to worry about.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12th, 2009 03:28 pm |
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10th Post |
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Will Approved
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If the neck on the Gibson J-50 is already straight, you can try this non-destructive idea to ease the string tension. Slacken the strings by a half-step. That is, lower the tuning from E-A-D-G-B-E to D#-G#-C#-F#-A#-D#. Play with a capo on the first fret and you'll have the familiar EADGBE tuning. Or, you can try lower the string tension a full step to DGCFAD and play with the capo on the 2nd fret. The capo automatically gives you a lower string action for first position chords. You can remember this lower tuning as "Dixie Fad." Old 12-string guitars were commonly played with this lower tension tuning; the string tension was so great that it would destroy the guitar top if played at the normal concert pitch. New 12-strings are designed better nowadays and can play at concert pitch, but my first Seagull 12-string had to be played a DGCFAD for the first few years. Beats the heck out of potentially ruining your Gibson guitar with an extensive neck re-set.
____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12th, 2009 04:28 pm |
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11th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I frequently wish that Will was a stock broker... as, once again, you can take his advice to the bank. Lowering the tension on the strings will reduce the amount of strength needed fret the strings. The capo, becoming the nut will also lower action, or tend to. This is the easiest solution of all. And very likely the best.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12th, 2009 10:53 pm |
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12th Post |
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theBlackman Approved
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Right on phil. You can also try different string weights and styles to "ease" a seemingly high string/fret ratio. Last edited on Thu Nov 12th, 2009 10:54 pm by theBlackman ____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12th, 2009 11:38 pm |
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13th Post |
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Jim Yates Approved
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I am surprised that people consider a neck set "ruining a guitar". I agree that an amateur should not be allowed to try this, but I've had a couple of neck sets done and the appearance of the guitar was not changed and the playability was increased a lot. I would not take a valuable guitar to a luthier that I didn't trust, but there are a few guys in southern Ontario whose work I trust completely. They've done much work on my instruments over the years and would never "ruin" a valuable instrument. If the guitar is quite playable, but a change of string guage or lowering the saddle (not shaving the bridge) would fix your problem, then I wouldn't bother with the neck set, but if you have to resort to retuning and using a capo or shaving the bridge, then I'd have the neck reset done. These remedies might be OK for a low end guitar, but your J-50 is probably worth a neck re-set. Last edited on Thu Nov 12th, 2009 11:38 pm by Jim Yates ____________________ Jim http://www.myspace.com/jimyates http://www.myspace.com/mapleleafchampionjugband |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13th, 2009 03:15 am |
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14th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Jim, I am surprised that people consider a neck set "ruining a guitar". --Perhaps they don't have repairmen as capable as yours. They've done much work on my instruments over the years and would never "ruin" a valuable instrument. --I also have refused jobs that were beyond my skill level (or collection of specialized tools) If the guitar is quite playable, but a change of string guage or lowering the saddle (not shaving the bridge) would fix your problem, then I wouldn't bother with the neck set, --Point taken, lower the saddle first. There is a thread on that someplace. Shaving the bridge is not all that crazy-talk. If done right, it is a totally transparent repair. but if you have to resort to retuning and using a capo or shaving the bridge, then I'd have the neck reset done. --It's a question of personal preference and $600 (assuming the repairman is competent). These remedies might be OK for a low end guitar, but your J-50 is probably worth a neck re-set. --If it were my instrument,and nothing else worked, I would ask Gibson who they recommend near me. Or send it to them. And be prepared to wait. The repair shop at Gibson is excellent. But slow.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13th, 2009 09:41 am |
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15th Post |
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theBlackman Approved
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As phil said. And GIbson and Martin have been known to do repairs for situations such as yours for the cost of shipping. If the action was too high when purchased and as delivered by the factory, both have been known to "repair" such at minimal expense, or just for the handling.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13th, 2009 09:22 pm |
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16th Post |
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Will Approved
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BigPapaK wrote: Took my guitar to repair shop today. 72-73 Gibson J-50 Deluxe. Neck is straight, action is as low as it can go. To lower it, I am told, the neck needs to be rebuilt to lower the action at a price of ~600.00. It seems to make sense, but how does this extensive work impact the resale of such a vintage instrument; I would like a better action, but is it really worth it. Am I ruining a family heirloom by doing this? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Just so there is no misunderstanding, the original post said "neck rebuild" and not "neck reset." I'm no luthier, but I think that rebuilding a guitar neck is a lot more involved than just resetting the neck angle. Otherwise, the luthier in question would not be asking for $600. If that vintage Gibson J-50 were my guitar, I would find a simpler way to make the guitar more playable without the radical surgery of rebuilding the neck, such as lowering the saddle, changing to lighter gauge strings, etc. Nearly all of my guitars are new instruments, and I've done all the set-up work on them myself. The only guitar that I had to get fixed by a luthier was a Chinese copy of a Guild jumbo 12-string that had a very thin top and the string pull caused the top to belly and the bridge to lift off; the luthier installed a bridge doctor device and now it plays and sounds fantastic. Last edited on Fri Nov 13th, 2009 09:24 pm by Will ____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13th, 2009 09:51 pm |
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17th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Good catch Will. I wonder exactly what condition this puppy is in. Likewise what exactly does 'rebuild" mean? If the neck is so far gone that drastic measured must be taken, why not just replace the neck. When I worked for a luthier, we built a replacement neck for a Gibson J-185 that had cracked. We took the existing tuning board and and joined it to the new neck. Only one seam and hardly noticeable. The reason the neck split was an inferior conversion from six to 12 strings, as I recall. But it took a lot of work and time.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13th, 2009 10:01 pm |
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18th Post |
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Will Approved
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It's inherently difficult for us to advise on a situation of a guitar that we are unable to examine (no photos). Also, what constitutes "good action" is somewhat subjective. A heavy strummer who plays with a flat pick would need a higher action than a fingerstyle player, for example. How much money to spend also depends on an individual's preferences, priorities and budget. If I had $600 in hand, I'd probably buy a new guitar rather than spend it on fixing an old one.
____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13th, 2009 11:59 pm |
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19th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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The original poster is leaving enough alone and thinking of investing in a Martin. Works forme. Not that I can afford a Martin. But $600 won't buy a Martin. At least none made in the last half-century. But we have had a spirited debate. Without knowing more about the J-50 and what exactly is the state of the action, the condition of the neck, finances of the original poster, the competance of the luthier, the definition of terms and the chances of a good soy bean harvest next spring, we can sheath our rapier-like wits and wait for facts to emerge. Or not.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14th, 2009 03:38 am |
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20th Post |
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Will Approved
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I own a solid wood Martin, the Custom D spruce and rosewood dreadnought made specifically for Musician's Friend/Music 123/Woodwind & Brasswind. Four years ago, it sold for $799, now it sells for $1099. It plays and sounds great, although it had a bit higher action than I liked when I first got it. I later installed a compensated bone saddle, installed brass bridge pins, and Cleartone strings. http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Martin-D15-Custom-Spruce-and-Rosewood-Acoustic-Guitar?sku=515888  Last edited on Sat Nov 14th, 2009 12:31 pm by Will ____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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