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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner |
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| Resonators | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27th, 2006 02:19 pm |
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1st Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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Every since I played at an event where the banjos outnubered the guitars and there were maybe a hundred of them and they all seemd to be playing at the same time, and I couldn't hear my own instrument...I've wanted a resonator banjo. But one that would go on only for those times when a lot of sound is needed. Options: Buy one. Besides the money, I have enough banjos. Not going to happen. Rent one. Sure... dream on. Borrow one. Possibility. One of my sons-in-law, has an IDA but they live over an hour's drive one-way. Possible, not practical. Build one... no, not another banjo. A resonator. Deering makes a plate-style resonator for their line. It seems to be a hard-wood disk, held in place with a J-bolt (over the truss rod). I can't see why I couldn't make it from plywood. Now, who has resonators? Do you like them? What problems do they give if any? Who has both open back and resonator banjos? What's life like? Which do you habitually reach for? What advice can you offer? Decades ago, there was something called a pie-plate resonator. This was not a commercially-made product. It was literally a metal pie-plate the was wedges in the open-back and served as an ad hoc volume increaser. I couldn't find one the right size, but I did find a Schaffer beer trat that fit in perfectly. Only it sounded like crap. I could take the resonator off my old Regal tenor, but the hardware on that old fossil is not in good condition and would not survive a reinstallation. New rings and etc would go for over $100 at StewMac. That's not going to happen either. Last edited on Mon Nov 27th, 2006 04:03 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27th, 2006 03:34 pm |
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2nd Post |
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garyblanchard Approved 
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Since I like my banjo as mellow as possible, I have always avoided things like tone rings and resonators. I don't know what banjos you own, but someone does make an after-market resonator that fits the Goodtime; it used to be about $50.00. Folks on the Banjo Hangout could probably give you more info, and also let you know if it works on other openbacks. Gee, I can't believe that buying another banjo is not an option. 
____________________ http://www.GBandF.com http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/919/audio.php?p=1 |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27th, 2006 04:23 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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The Deering add-on resonator is the one that got me thinking. It sells for $48 plus shipping. Someone on BHO gave a link. It seems a number of people have it. One of them claimed it double sound output. Several people said it improved the balance, even as it made the instrument heavier. And it should still fit in the existing case. I think their's is beech. Looking at resonators online I notice that a lot of them are made of veneers. Hello? That's plywood. When (and if) I make one of them, I'll cut a disc out of plywood first (before going for a hardwood disc). It will need spacers to hold the resonator away from the pot. I have some one by ones left over from an emergency painting framing session. (A story for another time.) Run the wood stock through my tablesaw with the blade set to cut a half inch deep. Turn stock over 90 degrees and run it through again. The willcreate a 1/2" dado (squared-off groove). Cut the stock sideways into four, 5/8" L-shapes. Glue them to the disk. Drill a hole in the center. Sand. Sand. Sand. Stain Walnut in and out. Oil the wood (probably tungoil or gun stock oil). Make a J-bolt if I can't find one/buy one. Tune up the Vega LN and see what happens. The same resonator should fit on the Goldtone/Vega Frankenbanjo cludge. Since you asked: I have five functioning banjos at the moment: Two open back LNs, a standard 5 string open back, a tenor with resonator and the banjoreo. Oddly the bajoreo has a resonator, the lid. I put the lid on after first wanting to leave it open for the look. The lid does add a little volume but I never cut holes in it. If I did, it might be more productve. But the lid does give the banjoreo more strenght and it stays in tune better. The extra weight helps balance it too. To digress from my own thread: I'm thinking of running some tennis-racquet lead tape around the inside of the rim to give it better heft.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27th, 2006 11:09 pm |
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4th Post |
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Richard Hefner Administrator 
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Hey Phil, I've got a Gold Tone BG-250 that has a removable resonator. I've almost always played it without the resonator but it's always there just in case. I've been thinking of doing some bluegrass banjo instruction videos and I thought I'd put it on for that just so I didn't look too dorky playing an openback in the bluegrass style. I think some of the other Gold tone banjos have removable resonators as well such as the Cripple Creek. It's a nice option and, as you know, it's not usually possible on most bluegrass banjos because of the flange. 
____________________ Richard Hefner MP3 Page: http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/richardhefner Running Blog: http://old-runner.com |
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 01:36 pm |
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5th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Richard, When you say removable, what does the instrument look like without the resonator? I ask because I remember people down in Washington Square a jillion years ago who had a BG banjo and would take it off to frail. Looked odd to see someone frailing away with the flange out there doing nothing. Always though BG banjos sound to bright, even muted for OT music. Does your banjo have the resonator that requires a flange, or a plate resonator? Last night I laid out a piece of 5/8" plywood, measured and 'scribed a circle. I'll probably start cutting and shaping this weekend. On the otherhand, three-finger picking or any BG style works fine on any banjo. Of course, that's just my opinion. The tone is less crisp and purhaps the tone sustains a bit too long for some BG pieces. But if you like the sound of an open back banjo, you like the sound. In the mid-60's just after Doc Watson appeared in an OT concert at a public school in NYC, backing up his father-in-law on fiddle, (and of course stole the show) he got a gig at a bar called Folk City. It was a good place with a lot of quality people perfroming there. One night, in the middle of the week, Pete Seeger came down to catch this new guy (Doc Watson). Seeger had his LN with him and he joined Watson for a few tunes. Seeger played to Watson's lead (on guitar), but I never heard him play his LN with such gusto and precision. He picked bluegrass, he frailed, he double-thumbed and every style worked. Then again, stretching a rubber band over a cigar box wouldwork if you were jamming with Doc Watcon.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 01:58 pm |
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6th Post |
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Richard Hefner Administrator
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My banjo (BG-250) without the resonator looks just like an openback banjo. I know what you mean about the flange... I've seen those too. The flange on the BG-250 is just 3 removable plates that attach with thumbscrews so the flange comes completely off, leaving the banjo looking like a standard openback. There's also a BG-250F model that Gold Tone makes that does have one of those permanent flanges. It's more expensive and I guess some people think it sounds better but I prefer the BG-250 mostly because of having the choice between using the resonator or not using it. It might be too bright sounding for some people's taste but I like the way it sounds. Here's a clawhammer song I recorded with it... http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=song_hifi&band_id=2&song_id=5
____________________ Richard Hefner MP3 Page: http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/richardhefner Running Blog: http://old-runner.com |
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 02:18 pm |
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7th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I think your banjo sounds terrific. You do too! It sounds like a quality, steel strung banjo. If I were to guess, I would say you widened the bridge a bit from standard to get more precision.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 01:31 pm |
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8th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Does anyone experience with a lathe? Hopefully, an end-plate lathe? I rough cut the plate-resonator for the Vega LN out of 5/8" plywood. It fits as is, but needs the l-spacers, j-bolt to be finished. And it needs a ton of sanding. I'm thinking of rigging up an old washing machine motor I've attached a 1/2" chuck to, with a sandind disk. But I'm concerned about removing too much wood. This is a 3/4 horsepower motor and it moves! (Never get a finger too close to a work bit.) Plan B: I'm thinking of attaching the plate-resonator to the chuck directly. Then when it spins, approach it with a wood rasp, sanding block or file. I don't have much in the way of wood guages or turning chisels so I'm saved from that kind of incipient disaster. Have you ever done anything like this? Maybe I should sit down and turn on the TV.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 02:20 pm |
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9th Post |
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viking Approved 
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Hi Phil No specific experience of doing this for a banjo resonator but if your using laminates (PLY) then I suspect the answer will be to use a "LAST" in one of two ways. Either building up your own laminate in thin layers glued over a former ( think papier mache) this can give a fantastic result and you can have your own choice of finish veneers, this used to be done with old fashioned hot glues but modern pva's make the job a lot easier. Or placing a piece of ready made laminate over the former and stretching it to shape! This can be done over a long period dry or better still by steaming the laminate you will cause the layers to lose adhesion and then re-adhere as they dry/cool !!COOL!! The same can be done with hard woods. A suitably gauged piece of hard wood will stretch and mould itself to a former, given enough weight and the application of steam. I remember as a young boy watching my father (a master joiner ) bending a huge piece of hardwood several inches thick for a bow-front window with just the judicious use of a few weights and a handful of strategically placed kettles ( its funny the things you remember from your childhood) ! If I were doing this job I would go for option 1 and make the former from clay or similar material I would be tempted to get a variety of veneers to make a suitably patterned back (radial triangles would be nice) not forgetting to lay the layers with opposing grain directions. Clamp the layers from the inside to the rim in order to squeeze out all the air and allow to dry completely between layers. Good luck MARK
____________________ Hear You Soon MARK |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 02:27 pm |
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10th Post |
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viking Approved
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PS MAKE THE RING IN THE SAME WAY Using thin layers glued and over jointed to build up the ring.This could be attached to the backboard with glue and kerfings or for a banjo as the ring can be quite thick glued and screwed before the final veneer is added to the back! I think I'll start making my own brand resonators tomorrow!
____________________ Hear You Soon MARK |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 03:28 pm |
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11th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Viking... I think you should go into the resonator after-market business. And your father should be the technical advisor. Everything you said makes sense. And I thank for you information. My copy of the Deering design is far-simpler and too-far along. I understand the weight/steam principle and took part in a few projects (when I worked for a luthier a long time ago). This is going on the back of a Vega LN and hopefully it will be next to invisible. I don't want to disturb the exisiting look, even at the price of the resonator not throwing 100% of the sound foward. There's no metal ring. And looking at the banjo from the front, there will be no way to tell it's there, other than greater volume of sound. Agree with the use of modern adhesives. Just because heat-soluble glues were used in the past is no reason to continue to use them today. Like a traditional banjo picker insisting on cooking on a wood stove because 19th-century banjo pickers cooked on a wood stove. Last edited on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 03:30 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 05:57 pm |
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12th Post |
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GW in Ohio Approved 
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Phil: My first good banjo (after a couple of turkeys) was a Deering Goodtime openback with a factory installed pickup. When I heard this banjo played with an acoustic amp, without fingerpicks, I fell in love with the sound. I still have the Deering; it's a wonderful instrument. I've just purchased a second openback...a Gold Tone White Ladye, and I requested the Gold Tone folks to include an SMP pickup (for an additional $99). As soon as I make a little money from my second job, I'm buying a Behringer acoustic amp. And then I'll be ready to perform in public without worrying about being heard. I have had bluegrass banjos, and by definition they must have a heavy resonator to produce that distinctive bluegrass sound. But after playing the Deering for years, I could never get used to a heavy bluegrass banjo around my neck. It felt like a millstone. Last edited on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 05:58 pm by GW in Ohio |
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 06:14 pm |
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13th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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GW: Agree on the weight. But with that weight comes a balance. A factor of left hand speed in BG is that the hand doesn't not have to give the banjo as much support to hold it upright. A simple strap on the banjo pot itself gets the neck from going anyplace. LN's, even better ones, tend to pendjalum down. My Vega/Goldtone mixbreed is so neck heavy, I have to use the strap ala guitar. It's attached from the fretboard to the tailpiece. The Vega is actually ballasted. The truss rod is about an inch thick. It doesn't swing down but after a while gravity becomes a critic. The resonator I'm building is for the Vega primarily but I hope to have it fit (with a different j-bolt) the V/GT. Beside volume production, I hope it aids in balance. Wish you hardy congratulations on your new Goldtone. You previously mentioned you wanted a LN. Is this one? The LN neck I purchased from them was for a pot with BG resonator. It needed a lot of cutting/shaping to find the open-back Vega pot. I didn't know Goldtone made an open-back LN.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 3rd, 2006 02:00 am |
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14th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress Report: 80% done. It is on the banjo and playable. Big but coming... But I'm not sure if is was worth the effort. Fortunately, it took a lot less work than I thought. That idea about turning the plate on a motor didn't work. Maybe a slower mortor or a motor on a rheostat... but everytime I turned the assmlby on, the shaft spun and the plate wobbled. I ended up finish sanding by hand. The damn J-bolt was the hardest part. Local hardware store didn't have any. The closest thing was an O-bolt. But it was so tough I had to heat the metal with a propane torch to bend it into a J. I still have to cut some of the bolt off and decide how to finish it. I do't see a huge increase in volume. I'll test it with a level indicator on software. But I notice a crisper sound. A faster rise and fall of tone. I post pixs and sample with and without in a little while.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 4th, 2006 11:41 am |
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15th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Set back: If anyone has been reading this far, be careful of what you make the little spacing "L's" out of. I used pine. It's just not strong enough. Use plywood or hardwood. I'll be remaking them out of oak. Putting the banjo down on end cracked wo of them. The up side was that the cracks where on the back of the L and not the foot which is actually the spacer. So the resonator stayed firm in place. Hmmm... now I wonder if just the foot is all that's needed. Sound after two days with the resonator. Defintiely sharper, crisper and louder. Without; mellower, richer. The big print giveth and the little print taketh away. Next step: stain it to (hopefully) match the pot. Give it a few costs of oil. Buff. Use when the mood moves me. Since it's made of plywood, I'm a little leary of routing a groove in the edge to recieve some decorative banding. This would also mask the plywood. I'll think on that. Last edited on Mon Dec 4th, 2006 03:07 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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