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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner |
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| "Celtic" Music | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:21 pm |
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1st Post |
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Dave Keir Approved 
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As a Scot I’m a bit bemused by the use of this term to describe all indigenous music from Scotland, Ireland, Wales – and a few other places. Let’s be clear: the Celts (whoever they were) are long gone. The Scots, for example, are a mongrel mixture of Picts, Irish, Norse, and Angles (who’ve I missed?) – liberally seasoned from other gene pools. While a couple of the foregoing were themselves descendants from a people who could reasonably be called Celts, their genetic legacy has been so diluted as to be irrelevant to the modern day population. Now, it’s not known what kind of music the Celts had (on the presumption that they had a music). Certainly there are no grounds to believe that Scots reels, jigs, strathspeys, etc is in any way remotely derived from anything they might have done. I suppose that given a superficial similarity in the musical styles between these nations (Ireland, Scotland, et al) that it seems convenient to class them all as pertaining to a racial stereotype. But this is an error and is unhelpful.. In fact, it obscures the true origin of these musics – Wales, Scotland, Ireland. Brittany… I’m a songwriter living near Aberdeen in the North-East of Scotland. Once the stronghold of the Picts. By repute they painted their faces. They forced the Romans to build a big wall to keep them at bay. Are my songs Pictish?  Rant over. Thanks for listening. Now back to your normal programming...  Last edited on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:23 pm by Dave Keir ____________________ Dave http://ezfolk.com/audio/Dave_Keir http://www.dave-keir.com "Interim Reports" at CDBaby |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 02:22 pm |
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2nd Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved 
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I would say 'celtic' music is simply a generic term covering a specific type of music, typically played with strings, such as guitar, violin, harp and tenor banjo; either in an ensemble form such as Chieftains or Boys from the Lough, or incorporating male tenor solos such as Shane MacGowan and the Pogues, or female soprano solos. There will be much use of drums, including but not limited to, the bodhran. forms will typically be lively set dances such as jigs or reels, rousing choruses of the 'Wild Rover' type, or emotional ballads such as 'Loch Lomond' or 'Danny Boy' I would exclude Welsh harp music and piping of all sorts. it may or may not have anything to do with what the locals called themselves when Pontius was a pilot, it certainly isn't a fully inclusive description of the various forms of Scottish, Welsh and Irish music; but if I picked up a CD sleeve and saw the term, that's what I'd understand by it I would be most surprised if the Celts, who had a structured tribal society which made use of bards and professional story-tellers, produced some truly beautiful jewellery and metal work, and clearly had an organised religion, DIDN'T have a form of music; but what it was, who can say? Last edited on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 02:27 pm by cockneybanjo |
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 10:46 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Johnguitars Approved 
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While reading Aidan's, "Life of Columba," I came across an incident where Columba and his monks were denied entry to Brude's Castle at Inverness. The monks sang psalm 44 while the Druids sang in retaliation. So assuming that the local Druids could be classed as Celts, they would appear to have had music.
____________________ The secret to a happy marriage is saying sorry one more time than you feel you should. |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 03:54 pm |
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4th Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved
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I would have thought that monks would sing or chant in some form of Gregorian or similar ecclesiastical plain-chant, rather than the traditional music of the Celtic tribes? I can't imagine that a tribal society of the Celtic type didn't have a form of music, given their known artistic achievements in other areas, but no record of it survives Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 03:56 pm by cockneybanjo |
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 10:35 pm |
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5th Post |
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Alba Approved
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Your music would be Teuchter not pictish if you live outside Aberdeen The Scots are indeed made up of many different races but many you mention are themselves part of the vast mix of Celtic races who made their way to scotland (it just took the normans etc a bit longer to reach Aiberdeen, some overshot and landed in Ireland, others stayed in spain , some went to France and then finally got here 11C ) Seriously though I think the term Celtic does give a broad idea of the type of music as others have said. "Scottish music" would include Nazareth , Alex Harvey, Krankies, Moira Anderson, Will fyfe,Travis,altered images,Jim mcleod as well as bothy ballads, pipes,clarsach etc "Traditional" music opens another can of worms I think Pictavia(brechin) has a "pictish horn, ans I am pretty sure Picts would have had whistles and some sort of "harpy thang" ..of course they would also have drums ..every civilisation has drums ... its the LAW Cheers Alba
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 12:53 am |
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6th Post |
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ednull Approved 
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Dave Keir wrote:
Rant over. Thanks for listening. Now back to your normal programming... Well, I live in the Ozarks, the stronghold of hillbillies. Does that mean my songs are, wait, I guess it does. Nevermind... 
____________________ Edward Null EZ Folk Soundclick CD Baby |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 01:05 am |
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7th Post |
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James Connolly Approved 
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The Celts are everywhere, it doesn't matta if we have drums or not. I love Celtic music and proud to be Celtic. Right Smurphy ? Séamus
____________________ James (Seamus) Connolly http://ezfolk.com/audio/jamesconnolly http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/422/popmp3.php http://www.myspace.com/celticseamus |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 04:55 pm |
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8th Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved
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speaking as someone who isn't in the least Celtic, and tends to regard the whole issue with the semi-detached amusement common on this side of the border, ( nothing infuriates the Scots more, in my experience, than the fact that the English simply don't take them seriously, much less regard them as the Old Enemy - that's France ) I'll just observe that the Picts, or 'picta', were originally a Roman term applied generically to the inhabitants of the Northern province of Britannia, and simply means 'painted ones' Hibernia, or Ireland, was largely disregarded as being beyond the Romans' limited sea-faring capacity, and unable to either trade or raid in return to any significant extent for the same reason, and hence of no concern. The Romans were never hugely interested in documenting cultural diversity, and applied the term indiscriminately. They certainly never made any serious effort to learn or record the various Celtic, Pictish or other languages, and since they had no written records of their own, very little is really known about the actual composition of the population of the British Isles at the time Hadrians Wall isn't really a fortification at all. It is part of the Roman system of 'limes' ( limits ) defining the administrative boundaries of the Empire, and serving primarily to channel and monitor trade for tax-gathering purposes. The mile-castles and other structures are much too small to accomodate garrisons of serious military size, most of them were cavalry anyway; a mobile force for supressing minor local disorder and generally keeping an eye on things it's just one of those things the Scots have never really come to terms with, like the awkward fact that the Highland Clearances were very largely conducted by Scots against their own people, for financial and political gain... or that the whole panoply of kilts and pipes were invented out of thin air by the English and bear little connection with their Scots predecessors. Why else do you think there are kilted pipebands in regiments from Nairobi to Nepal?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:36 am |
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9th Post |
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theBlackman Approved 
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"[...]or that the whole panoply of kilts and pipes were invented out of thin air by the English and bear little connection with their Scots predecessors. [...] Gee, and I always thought the Irish invented the "Pipes" and let the Scots steal the idea, and from what I can tell, the Scots still haven't gotten the joke.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:55 am |
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10th Post |
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Ed Saultz Approved 
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This may be of interest: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16996
____________________ Peace, a brilliant aspiration!!! I know, let's try that live and let live philosophy again! I'm just sayin'. Traditional and Contemporary Irish Music http://www.EdSaultz.com http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/3205/ |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:27 pm |
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11th Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved
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I like the bit about Cornish music still being invented.. it will go nicely with the Cornish 'language', then
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 11:43 pm |
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12th Post |
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Alba Approved
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cockneybanjo wrote: speaking as someone who isn't in the least Celtic, and tends to regard the whole issue with the semi-detached amusement common on this side of the border, ( nothing infuriates the Scots more, in my experience, than the fact that the English simply don't take them seriously, much less regard them as the Old Enemy - that's France ) I'll just observe that the Picts, or 'picta', were originally a Roman term applied generically to the inhabitants of the Northern province of Britannia, and simply means 'painted ones' The picts were still seperate tribes to those in strathclyde and elsewhere .The fact that the name "pict" comes from a Roman source is not the main issue in deciding their identity. Nor do scots worry unduly about what the english think of them, I dont have a problem with the english but nor do I have a particular interest in them (in the same way as I feel about people from other Scottish towns) The real story of Highland clearances is taught in History at Scottish Schools, most people know the facts of battles such as Culloden (where brothers could be on opposite sides)Most people also know the history of tartans, kilts and their "relationship" or lack of it to Philabegs (Redrum the racehorse had his own tartan so it is all really a bit of fun) and a bit more exciting than sewing buttons on your jacket and hat and singing Chas N Dave songs I wonder if can truly say you are not in the least bit Celtic Uk is a big mix of different races and always had been , I'm sure there must be a distant ginger second cousin or a Jimmy shand LP lurking somewhere in your family history cheers
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 12:14 pm |
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13th Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved
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as it happens...... my grandfather was a Swede of Jewish origin who served in the German Army and arrived in England as a PoW in 1917, stayed on and married a London girl. My father also married a Cambridgeshire girl of similar Scandinavian extraction, so I think the chances that I have any Celtic connections are pretty remote, like most good cockneys I have relatives who only learnt to speak English in living memory. I did once go to Dublin for the rugby if that's any help? My grandfather was dismissive of Scots, as it happens. He had personal experience of the Baltic pogroms of the late 19th and early 20th century, and had distant relatives who disappeared without trace into the German and Russian prison camp systems in the 1930s and 1940s. He was hugely proud of his adopted country, a place where a man could walk down the street without being assaulted for his religion, or find his shop windows smashed by the police for the same reason. Any Scot attempting to convey the opinion that the English were all the demons of Baal incarnate, for reasons which appeared to him to be long out of mind, were assured of an unsympathetic hearing. A man who had fought against his adopted country in one war and watched his son fight for it in the next, for reasons which seem to him real, immediate and sufficient, had little interest in Culloden or Bannockburn. I would mention in passing also, that the accounts of the Highland Clearances taught in English schools, insofar as they are taught at all, bear no visible resemblance to the Scottish version. The wholesale collapse of low-level subsistence agriculture, with the resulting displacement of the impoverished rural tenantry, was a general issue throughout Western Europe throughout the eighteenth and early 19th Centuries, after all Scotland appeared to the English of the time as a largely ungovernable country, prone to occasional outbursts of military adventuring stoked up by French interference and religious and dynastic quarrels in which the English had long since lost interest. The effective bankruptcy of the Scottish state following a spate of ill-advised colonial adventuring in South America offered the opportunity to form an alliance with what appeared to be the only credible authority, the King, support him as had been done in India and elsewhere, and dispose of the problem at source. I know that doesn't tend to equate with the Scots view of life, grievance-driven and inward-looking in a fashion which often puts me in mind of that other great Lost Cause, the Confederate States of America, but never mind. There's a whole world out there.... As it happens, I tend to feel that the Act of Union has benefitted both sides on the whole over its 300-year span, and continues to do so. I tend to feel that both sides contribute something the other doesn't have. I'd be sorry to see it go, but of it means that we could send Phoney Tony and Gordon Brown back across the border so that marginal Scots Labour constituencies get to pay for their own free dentistry, free Universities and the freeloaders at HolyRood, I could probably be convinced. If it meant we had heard the last of the ID Card scheme, even better. not that this has a whole lot to do with banjos...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 01:31 pm |
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14th Post |
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Alba Approved
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you mean Scots get free dentistry ? and free University ! My god I never realised we were such a backward country ,what could we be thinking? Healthcare and Education available to all ....... cheers
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 02:47 pm |
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15th Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved
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I'll be watching the SNP's faces with interest when the first fruits of independence are the wholesale arrival of the unemployable English underclass, lured there by Grumpy Gordon's freebies for Scottish Labour marginals which are unfortunately no longer paid for by English tax-payers....and of course being EU citizens, they will have unrestricted access... plus of course every Scot working South of Jedburgh will be charged £30,000 pa as a non-dom.... or of course you could send an SNP hit-squad to fetch him back now. We wouldn't mind. all things considerd, I think it only fair that MPs for Scots constituencies have the favour returned and have no vote on matters South of the border. I'd be interested to see how many MPs in Staffordshire or Norwich would support some of the things the English taxpayer is currently underwriting. Be interesting to see SC4W stand on its own feet financially, come to that. Last edited on Fri Mar 14th, 2008 02:53 pm by cockneybanjo |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 08:36 pm |
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16th Post |
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Alba Approved
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I remember back in the eighties and undertaking my degree in London my fees were that of an "overseas" student .. luckily I was not doing geography at that particular establishment  Labour are a British party so their MPS can vote at Westminster if they wish, SNP are a Scottish party and don't vote on issues affecting only England /Wales. during Thatchers reign  there were no Tories elected in Scotland but they ran roughshod over Scotland none the less. You now have a British Prime minister from a British party (who happens to be Scots) ..so what is the problem should Prime ministers only be English.?At Holyrood previously unelectable Scottish Tories now have a voice and represent the Scots who are Tories( due to proportional representation ...for all its sins) and that is only fair and right. The argument about whether more money goes North than South will always be polarised,my interest is more how Scotland develops under devolution which I do believe ultimately will lead to Independence. As I say I have no gripe with England and hope that Englands search for its own identity is fruitful , I like the fact that more and more the St Georges Cross is flown rather than the Union Jack ....and flown for the right reasons rant over ( if you can call it that) I'm off to practice my hammer ons and pull offs 
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 08:56 pm |
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17th Post |
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cockneybanjo Approved
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SNP's vote in Westminster is numerically irrelevant. They could vote for free beer every Wednesday, for all the difference it would make. Labours' manipulation of the whip system to favour Scottish marginals, using English votes, however, is somewhat different. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, between them, have displayed extraordinary contempt for the very process of parliamentary democracy. If Scottish independence means that the present and future Tonys and Gordons are barred from the chamber, it will all be worthwhile. quite what sort of government they will bring to their native land will happily not be an English problem.... I work in the offshore oil and gas industry and I have seen a good deal, in recent years, of the tribulations of the formative post-Soviet countries, espacially in the Caspian and Baltic. It is my honest opinion that neither the SNP nor their supporters have the slightest idea of what they are trying to let themselves in for. I genuinely believe that they will rue the day they turned their backs on a Union which for all its faults, has been a remarkably durable accomodation between two neighbours with little in common, and no notable record of being able to get on together.
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